Let's talk about accessibility as a UX and design responsibility or subtitle how to run an accessibility workshop for creatives. That piece was is the second half. So let's go through a quick overview of what we're gonna talk about.I'm gonna make a couple brief introductions of who I am and who I work for. We'll talk through what accessibility is and understanding how it plays a role in our current world. Um We'll look at accessibility in combination with UX and design and we'll go through the steps of how to set up an accessibility workshop for a group of creatives. But I understand that not everyone is working in a digital space or with creative teams. So I've modified it a little bit to be um more applicable across a bunch of different industries. Also, at the end, I have a whole bunch of resources on slides that whether I'm not sure the conference will be sharing the slides, but we'll make sure that the video is published with closed captioning and all of the resources are made available afterwards. As I said, I'm just vice this is my Twitter handle. I'm the strategy director at Struck where I lead a team of brand media, UX and experiential strategists.

We build thoughtful data driven strategies for our clients and we work with Struck who is a creative agency with a 25 year legacy of brand building and experiential design. We're based in Salt Lake City, Utah, in the west side of the United States. And we make market leaders out of brands by transforming their physical and digital experiences to create experience affinity. You're welcome to use the Twitter handles if you want the conference. Hashtag and it's in the bottom right corner of my slides also, that can be a little overwhelming.

So no worries. So why am I talking about accessibility? I have a deep background in UX. I've been working for 14 years in tech and product, both on the agency side and in house with teams and clients directly. Um But I would say the general theme for my entire career has been advocating for humans and it seems unfair to me as I've gone through all of these different realms that we still expect folks with disabilities to be to both navigate this world and advocate for themselves. I believe that UX and design experts have the background, the tools and the experience to be really good advocates and allies. So that's why I'm here to talk about it today. A quick definition of accessibility, even though we've heard this word a lot, let's just make sure we're all on the same page. So whether it's a physical experience, a mode of transportation, a service or product or digital interface, accessibility is a state where any user at any time can retrieve the information or goods that they need with little to no difficulty. And I think the important piece here is the little to note difficulty. The part of accessibility that's most important obviously is access. And even though this is a very common topic and we hear a lot, we also still hear arguments. Well, why should we bother?

Why does this matter? Um I've seen this equation come up where people even will say on, they'll count on their fingers. Well, there's wheelchair users and people with canes and people with seeing eye dogs and that's such a small population. Why should we even bother designing for them?

And they're right. If you look at this list, that's 4.8% of the United States population, that's not very much. But that is a really, really narrow definition of disability. It doesn't include cognitive disabilities, learning or neurological disabilities, auditory, physical visual. It's just this really narrow perception.

And when you look at this list, we're actually considering a much larger portion of the population when we start designing. Another way to think of it is that not all disabilities are permanent either. Um This chart comes from Microsoft Designs, Toolkit about inclusive design and they point this out we exist on a spectrum. We have permanent disabilities, there's temporary disabilities and they're situational. Every one of us has ended up in a situational disability environment where we can't access the thing that we need because of what's going on around us. Um I would bet that if you think back through your last week, you'll be able to come with at least one situational disability that you experienced just because of where you were and the conditions around you. So when we look at this larger picture of disability on a spectrum, and we start to think of how we're designing for all of these pieces. We also start to think about maths a little bit, which is not my favorite subject. But my friend Jared school says, don't use averages and in design as we start to build personas or we start to build sort of these structural pieces of our design process.

We're often averaging, we're saying this whole group of people is like this one person and we're going to use that one person as our template for design. But Jared says, don't do this. He says that the entire purpose of an average is to dampen out the extremes. But the extremes are interesting when we use the extremes to shape the problems that we're solving for. We often catch most of the middle in the process. So a couple of questions that I try to take away from this and that I would challenge you to think about going forward, especially on on this topic of extremes and a sliding scale or, or a spectrum is how as we do user research, are we including extremes? How hard are we trying to include those extremes? And how might we do a better job next time of including more stories? So I want to run through really quickly because I know not everyone works in a digital space. I want to run through a bunch of different examples of accessibility and how it looks in the world around us because it is a global concept, right? And not just for websites, a lot of physical accessibility um solutions are the first things that come to mind. And my favorite is the curb cut effect.

And I don't know if you've heard this um philosophy, but in the early 19 hundreds, in America City, developers started building ramps into the corners of their sidewalks so that wheelchair users and they were targeting veterans, particularly um wheelchair users could access, crossing the street much more easily.

What they found on accident was that mothers with strollers, elderly folks, Children on bicycles, people with deliveries and even more were using these curb cuts as well. And so what happened to be a design for a very small portion of the population ended up being exponentially beneficial to the entire community. And this idea is recognized as the curb cut effect, um which again is Jared's average statement we're not designing for averages. We're designing for extremes and we catch all these people in the middle. We've also seen a lot of really great um technology advances in the last couple of decades from screen readers to these really clever single-handed keyboards. Um And actually in our research for the workshop that we put on, we found out that Apple built one of the better screen readers. Um it's called voiceover and it's actually on your phone. If you have an I OS device, it's in your pocket, it's accessible to anyone. And the reviews from folks who use it frequently are that it's really spectacular and works very well. In my experience, the gaming industry has been leading out on visual accessibility. Um They have been introducing all sorts of modes for color blind and even to on the the picture on the right for Fortnite, multiple different variations of color blindness are accounted for in their settings. Um So that the games themselves are accessible to so many more people.

My favorite is this example on the left, it's a game called two dots and you play by matching up the colors in the circles. But if you can't see the colors, you can add a layer where it puts shapes over each color. And so you're just down to matching shapes and it's that much simpler. Um Another example is the voiceover ID, like the one I gave at the early at the very beginning of my presentation. And if you think about that's helpful for folks who can't see. But that's also for helpful for folks who are situationally unable to see. Like some of us who take Zoom meetings in our car with the video off. I won't point fingers, but I'm certainly one of those. But a voiceover ID certainly is very helpful and gives us a lot of context for the person who's speaking, both captioning and subtitles are becoming way more ubiquitous. We've seen them on transcripts uh for podcasts and for interviews, but we've also seen them used on tiktok and Instagram and places that I was a little surprised frankly to see such accessible um options being employed. And if you've been watching the news at all, lately, we're starting to see sign language interpreters show up as a very common um feature of news conferences and public addresses. And I believed that the closed captioning was not available today. It does seem that it's working.

So either way we'll make sure when this video is over um that we have captions and a transcript available, cognitive and learning disabilities, things like measurement tools like the flash Kincade scale or readability checkers are actually really helpful to bring content down to an accessible level for a wide audience.

Um And one thing that I really love is adding labels to icons which reduces cognitive load for the viewers. I don't know if you all saw this, but the, the photo on the left is from Venmo about four months ago, they updated their U I and they launched these four icons across the bottom navigation and the confusion was wild. No one could understand what they meant. We all were so used to the original U I and there was no warning and without any context or labeling, even those of us who were are really tech savvy were super in the dark and didn't know what to do. Um I also just checked last night and they have updated the navigation to have word labels to go with each icon, which I think is a great react reactivity, but they could have saved themselves a lot of trouble if they did it up front. The example in the middle is from the material design um design system that Google created and it recommends always adding labels to icons. So you can see why as a UX practitioner and a design adjacent design um advocate. I believe that accessibility is actually part of our job.

I really think it's foundational to the work that we do because we kick off every project. Um and it's really not something that can be added at the very end. So expecting the development team or the compliance team to show up at the end of a project and say, oh, hey, what about accessibility is really irresponsible on the part of UX in design? And I wanna talk a little bit more about why. So as UX and design and, and you know, I just realized I didn't clarify. Uxux is user experience where we are focused on how humans interact with an interface or a product or even a building or a space. Um It's really so focusing on the experience that folks are having with whatever it is that we've created. So we're very human centric and focus on um bringing that experience to as many users as possible. So as UX and design experts, we are experts at getting to why we understand how to ask the right questions, how to help clients tell us what it is that they're trying to get to what the out desired outcome is. And then we're able to convey that over to the rest of the team who's building the project with words or with illustrations. So we're really good communicators. Um And we are very good at speaking up on behalf of the research that we've done as UX in design.

We're also advocates the very first rule of user experience is this, you are not your user. We tend to make a lot of assumptions about other people based on our own experiences and user experience asks you to stop and to admit that you are not the person that you're designing for. So we've learned how to find those people and we've learned how to listen to them, listen to their experiences and then bring that research back to the teams and to broadcast or share the information that we've found so that everyone understands the experience we're designing.

And we've also learned through every step of the process how to re center the work that we're doing on the humans who will be using it in the end. Um One of the most important pieces of that recentering though, is advocating that all users who use this solution will experience success. And because we study people and we listen so closely and hold the desired outcomes in mind. We're really great partners to work with across a bunch of different teams. Um We help others along on the journey of understanding how accessibility matters and how they can participate, especially developers. And I do think while we could have an entire separate talk on developers, I want to take just a second to address this specifically from a UX and design perspective. None of what we build or none of what we design will make it to the real world without developers. So if we don't spend the time talking to them, listening to them, educating ourselves, understanding what's possible and then asking where they can meet us, we don't give accessibility a chance.

And I think that a again, this could be an entire separate talk, but um we really would benefit by building a stronger relationship with developers to bring accessibility into all of the work that we're doing. And if that's still not enough for a case for why we need accessibility there's a really great business case behind this. Um This is an example that this is an illustration of a case study that I read where a team was building a website and they didn't a a quick analysis of when they did accessibility checks and how much it cost them. So the first line at the top is a project end to end kick off on the left launch on the right of a website. Let's call it a website and the circles represent the times that they went around and did some accessibility checks. And you can see on this project they checked in frequently on small things and they did it sort of consistently throughout the process. And what they came up with was each of those accessibility checks cost about $100. So they spent about $600 and launched a product that was fully accessible. The second line is a more typical project where we kick off, we build the whole thing, we get to development and go. Oh, hey, um can you do, can you do some accessibility work?

And we do, but it costs a lot more. Um Often we have to bring in a third party vendor and it gets really expensive. So it costs $10,000 was the estimate here but it goes live still with all the accessibility checks in place. The last project happens almost as often where we build and launch without any accessibility work. And now thanks to um, the GDPR and Wag and ad a requirements. If you launch a website that isn't usable, you are liable for lawsuits. So, what they found was the lawsuit scenario costs closer to a million dollars. Um And it makes a ton of sense at this point that we would just do accessibility checks as we're going throughout the entire process to make sure that we get it right from the beginning. So I want to talk about how we got started. As struck, we ran an accessibility workshop for our creative team to help them understand the tools um and all of the pieces that they could use to make their work stronger. And I wanted to also note like we are far from perfect. This is something that we have started and we're really glad to have started it, but we know that we have a lot more work to do. Um And so this is a an ideal starting place for folks who are interested in bringing accessibility to everyone at their company as they get started designing.

So first off, we planned um pick a date, let people know it's coming, put it on the calendar, share examples and articles. We started talking about things like voice to text and other technologies that we could use to make our work more accessible. But we also started spreading word around the office that we would have a hands on um activity. And I feel like in work culture lately that you kind of have to warn people that there's a hands on activity because everyone gets awkward. So we kept telling folks we're gonna try stuff, we're gonna, you know, use the screen readers and we're gonna see how this works for ourselves so that we all have a better understanding. Um And we were pleased a lot of people actually got over their awkwardness and joined us for it. This is an example of the uh calendar invite that we sent. And on the top left, we mostly posted on the calendar slack. We sent emails and we made announcements. But if you wanted to go all out, you could print posters for the break room, mention things in internal reviews, do desk drops. I mean, the sky is the limit. It's however much you want to keep, keep the upcoming workshop at top of mind for folks. We also did a lot of research before we started the workshop. Um since we're based in Utah, in the Western United States and most of our clients are local or national.

We researched disability statistics specifically in America and we put together a brief presentation that set the tone and the case for accessibility. It went through data around visual auditory, physical speech and cognitive learning and neurological disabilities. And we decided to use our own work as examples.

Um It didn't feel fair to point fingers at other people and say they are not doing it well. When we had plenty of examples ourselves that we could pull and say, how did we do? Could we do better? Um So we went through our own work and pulled up pages on websites or examples of design work uh that we could show on a, on a laptop and share. This is an example of an infographic that we found from the CBC or the Center for Disease Control here in America that talks about how disability impacts the population. And if you remember the early argument of 4.8% people, you know, only 4.8% of people are disabled, you can see here how wrong that number is that people who believe disability is minor are really misled in our country alone. 61 million adults live with a disability and that's one in four people. So any one of us knows probably several people who live with a disability day to day and we're not talking about it. Um So we did some research with the CDC. We looked at health departments, we looked at special interest groups and local nonprofits. And then there are other places, especially as a UX researcher that I really like to look because you get more of the words of how people are talking about their own lives.

So forums, Facebook groups reaching out to people that you know, and hearing from real people about their experiences, brings this this research piece full circle, you start to get um really personal understandings of what it's like day to day and then what kind of help they have and what kind of advocacy they have.

Um And where they would like to see things change and grow as we built out the presentation, um We considered the context of our work, as I said. So when everyone showed up the first day for the, the workshop and it was just a quick afternoon, a couple of hours in our office, um we gathered everybody around and went through the presentation just to, to help frame why this is important. Again, I think a lot of people have this idea that is just not that big of a deal. And then as you look at the data, you start to realize it is a very common thing and it is something that most of us have come in contact with, if not personally experienced. So we encourage folks to start thinking about how we could build more empathy into our work around the office. We set up a couple of different stations and each station I would recommend this highly have a guide at each station who is familiar with the tool or the experience and can walk folks through it. Um That made a huge difference for us.

There was one station that was unmanned and it went a little lost um in the process because folks didn't quite know what to do. So we asked people to go and try things. We also had um someone who was appointed to keep time. So every 10 or 15 minutes, they would go from group to group and suggest they move on. Um So that everyone got a full experience and I think there's a lot of ways to get really creative with this. Here are some examples on the left. That column is what struck did. Um We tried a color blind app, which was really cool. It actually has a filter where you can see the world around you through different color blind lenses. Um, and we tried a color blind plug in that made our work on the internet look like it would for folks with different color blind varieties. And we did a test to see if any of us were color blind. Turns out our CEO is, um I found if you do this in larger groups, there's almost always one person who turns out to be color blind and didn't know it the whole time. So that's an interesting conversation starter. We looked at a contrast checker to make sure that our websites were matching. Um, the wag recommended contrast depths. We looked at a screen reader and tried that on our sites to see how they sounded.

We went through, um, closed captioning and brainstorming sessions about what our work looks like and how we could do better. And because we also do um some physical experiences. We talked about what we thought the current state was and how we could improve our physical experiences or spaces that we built in the future. On the right hand column are some more ideas of ways that you could play with understanding how all of these tools work. Um It'd be really neat to have a sign language interpreter come and demonstrate for the team and talk through um how to interact with folks who are deaf. Um Readability scores are really terrific, easy test to run on all of your own materials. Even if you don't have anything digital um publications, pamphlets, flyers, all of those can be run through a readability score. And I think there are lots of ways to get creative with taking a walk or a field trip. Um As you think about the environment around you and paying attention to how other people experience it. Here's some photos from our team um on the left, a designer is walking her colleagues through the color blind test and on the right, you can see like it was a little awkward.

There's some crossed arms and some wide legs, dances and some smiles because it felt a little funny, but we've found that trying new things together really breaks us open and grows our understanding of both each other and the experience that we're talking about. And by doing these together, we create a, a basis for accountability um because we all share this experience. It's now easier for someone to say, hey, we need to consider the contrast is not high enough or we need to look at how to um code this so that the screen reader is more accessible and and more effective. Um or you know, the copy is we don't have all text on our images and no one is afraid now to raise a hand and say we forgot something because we've all shared that experience. And so we, there's, there's not nearly as much shyness. We also because like I said, we do create digital to fully immersive physical experiences. We took a lot of time to brainstorm. You can sort of see in the background, there's orange sticky notes on the windows. Um We walked through all of our different products and outcomes and talked about how, how we have considered them in the past and how we might change our approach to them in the future.

We also looked at um working in an office together when you have a whole bunch of people in the same building. If you don't have open conversations about each other's needs and how you can support each other sort of on a regular basis. Um There may be someone who is suffering or who needs more awareness and more attention or something different than they currently have that could get the help that they need, but hasn't had the platform to say so. Um so regular check ins have been really great for us. We've had a couple more of these since. And then the last step is really important. Implementing what you found is obviously the, the whole point of a workshop. Um So we were really careful to share the presentation data publicly where the rest of the team could find it. We linked all of the tools that we tried in our internal wiki. And I've actually seen designers go looking for them and come back up and say, oh, the contrast on this isn't good enough, hang on, we have to change some of the colors and it's been, it's been really encouraging that more folks know how to access the tools, where to get them and then how to use them.

Um We also sent around a survey afterwards to make sure that this was useful and it helped change people's perspective a little bit. Um and asked if this was something that we could continue doing and everyone seemed to be really on board. But I think the most important piece of implementation is speaking up that if you see something that doesn't seem accessible or isn't considering accessibility, it's your job to say. So especially as UX in design. But once you've been educated on something like this, it's not comfortable always.

But it's definitely your responsibility to say we could do better. This, this is OK, but we could do better. Um going back to the shared experiences building a workshop and putting this together really sets you up to be able to do that more comfortably as well. One thing that I've learned, um, from my therapist is that a really easy way to point out uncomfortable things is to ask questions instead of pointing fingers or throwing flags or laying blame. It's easier to make a space where people feel comfortable contributing solutions if you ask a question and I've riffed on these questions a little bit. They're based on a quote by Doctor Victoria Vlez who's a social justice educator on Instagram. Um She's terrific and she has these questions about who's being included. And I think they're incredibly relevant to you Exit and Design research as well, who has been included in this work, who has not been included, who benefits from the current setup? Who is hurt by it? Whose voice needs to be heard? How might we find those voices? Who else needs to hear these decisions and how might we do better next time? I think we always underestimate the value of slowing down and taking time at the end of a project to look back and say what went well, what could have been better?

How would we do this differently next time and again, that creates a shared environment where folks feel more comfortable um bringing up their learnings and then referring back to them when something comes up because I believe that humans are UX and design specialities and that they humans are the focus of our jobs.

And if that's the case, then our shared goals are making the world usable and useful for everyone. And the power of one of these accessibility workshops is that when we feel for ourselves, what other people are experiencing, we start developing awareness and empathy and that shared experience.

And by exposing ourselves to new things, we level up our ability to be inclusive, to create accessible work and to make the world around us better. Because meaningful access to digital information and services is a basic human, right? I blew through that way faster than I expected.

So I'm gonna stop sharing and open the chat up for questions. Um I know the session was supposed to go a little bit longer but I talked really fast today or something. So if y'all have anything, let me go through the chat real quick. If you have questions, please drop them in the chat. Um And I'll make sure that we read them out and try to answer them good, close captioning work. That's awesome. Yeah, Patricia says there are about 1.2 billion people with disabilities in the world and they have a market power of $8 trillion. I love that statistic and I think we should talk about things like that. We've been talking about this a lot in the US lately that money has power. Um And if we can find the strings where the money is and pull on those strings. We'll get things done and the gaming keyboard, the, the one handed keyboard is a good gaming keyboard solution. I don't game, but I'm around friends who do it. You're probably right. Yes. And Jackie pointed out that this is really only talking about diagnosed disabilities. Um, there are a lot of neurodivergent people who are undiagnosed and don't know or understand why something doesn't work for them. So this is even more important as we start to talk through it.

And Patricia says that the other point is that um yeah, the half the population is aging and we're losing our color contrast starting in our forties. So again, thinking about situational or temporary situational could be just that I am older than 40 I'm starting to lose color contrast and it's not a disability necessarily um under you know, regulations and ad a protection, but it is absolutely the same thing. OK. Let me scroll down and see if there are questions. Have you ever faced objections to starting accessibility workshops? Ie that it's a waste of resources. If so, how did you respond to those objections? Thank you, Alexis. Um Well, yes, it's, there's a lot of people who will say it's a waste of time. And honestly, I've taken that slide that has um the, the example, the case study of how much it costs and when you tell CEO S or C levels that it could be a million dollars. If we don't do this, you tend to get their attention faster. Um It is still a place where we have to be a little bit creative. I call it content strategy, it's not creative, it's thinking about who's my audience and what message will most impact them.

So for the CEO we talk about money and how much this could cost and how much it could hurt us. Um For the design director or the creative director, we look again at the number of people with accessibility issues and that sliding spectrum, right of so situational and temporary to help remind them, this is actually a huge portion of our population. It's not 4.8% that's inaccurate.

It's most people. And so we need as good designers as good UX researchers, we need to design for everyone. Um That helps. I think persistence and examples are really the two keys. If we, if we can find examples of other people doing it well and having good results and share those results around it makes the case for us doing it as well. I hope that helps. Um Jackie asks, are there any tips or tricks about working with and for neurodivergent folks? Um That's a great question. And to your earlier point, like some folks aren't diagnosed, so they don't know as a human centered person. My first response is ask them, sit with them and talk and and sit with them the way that they're comfortable. Um, anyone. Right. And I think it's, I think it's less of a targeted, hey, you seem neurodivergent. That's not, not cool, but it's more of listening to people and watching people observing when they may be struggling with something and then asking how did that feel for you? Um, is that a normal experience for you? Is that something like how would you like for it to feel? I think talking about desired future state is really helpful and saying, I, I realized that it wasn't as comfortable as it could have been. What would, what would feel better? How could we do this differently?

Um And inviting them to share their experience without judgment and without critique, just taking it and saying, thank you, thank you for sharing that with me. I'd really like to try this again. Um So I'm thinking specifically of user testing when we do design work and we have a prototype that hasn't gone live yet, but we wanna make sure that it's workable. Um We'll try to find folks across a wide spectrum of people who might use this and ask them to test it out. And a lot of what we do is not correction, it's just observing and listening and asking questions. Um Questions are kind of my default. I think that's a really great way to, to ask. Um But also I think it's really fair to say, do you mind talking about this and see if they're willing to or if it feels too uncomfortable because I think what you'll find is that a lot of people haven't felt hurt. Um, and having a chance to tell you about their experience changes their point of view and it gives you more information.

Um Laurie says, have you received comments afterwards that others without disabilities noticed the design improved for all, not directly, but I am notorious for testing things on my mom and my grandfather. Um, my grandfather has just figured out how to use a smartphone at 86.

And so I will send him things and just see how he responds to them and he's not diagnosed with anything but he's 86. And so there are some things that I know that he will pick up on and he'll say, oh, that moved too fast or I couldn't read this and he just sort of gives feedback. So I do think that, um, we haven't done a ton of research into actually getting feedback on that specific topic, but we have seen overall the satisfaction goes up across the board for taking into consideration some of these extremes. Um I'll be honest, I've noticed I'm almost 40 that I squint more and I stare at the screen more with my eyes squinted shut and like trying to parse language and words and websites that have poor contrast actually annoy me. And I didn't notice up until this year after COVID that my eyes have maybe not been as good as they used to be. And so it's, yeah, I think even personally anecdotally, I think it's really helpful. Vijaya says, is there a place where developers or designers can learn more about accessibility? That's an excellent question. And I really want to have a whole separate thing on developers and accessibility.

Um When I post this, we will make sure that we post somewhere um all of the resources for designers and UX folks, but also for developers, I wanna pull a whole sheet of resources for developers to learn about accessibility. Um So this is a lame answer. But if you follow me on like linkedin or Twitter, I promise in the next couple of weeks as this video is available, we'll start sharing and posting or if you follow struck or if you follow uh women in tech, I'm sure that they'll retweet and share. Um But we will make sure that those resources get collected and put in one place so that they're readily available. Breathing. Talitha says part of my job is running accessibility audits on websites and I find so many issues along development phases even though design in UX considers accessibility to start with. And many times the problem is with content and is hard for clients to take it on. You're exactly right. And that's why this is sort of only half a talk because the other half is the developers, the other half is the people writing the content. Um UX writing is a really thoughtful space to look into because it starts to talk about um how words make meaning and how we reassure folks with our words on a website that what they're doing is correct and that what they think is gonna happen next will happen next.

Um But you're right, it's development again if we don't have conversations early and often with developers to understand what they can do. Um And we don't make the case for even if, if my development team can't build a certain accessible feature that I need, we'll talk about vendors, we'll talk about a third party, we'll talk about a freelancer, we'll talk about some way to get it in so that we are able to make sure that this product goes out the way that it's supposed to.

That's a really great point. Um And again, I think the workshops create a really lovely even open space where everybody has the same experience and then can comfortably talk about it later. And then Amy has great advice. Actually, um in response to Jackie's question about how to talk with folks who are neurodivergent. Amy says as a neurodivergent person, patience in conversations and checking for understanding by paraphrasing is super helpful. For example, is this what you meant um in therapy we call that mirroring, right?

Where I heard you say this is that what you meant? This is what I think you said did I understand you correctly and then talking probably slower than I did today. Um, and being patient and having the same conversation, maybe a couple different ways until you get through to the answer that both parties feel hurt and feel like they got what they needed out of it. Thank you, Amy. Terrific. Well, I think we're at time. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate it and I hope that you enjoy the rest of your, your conference.