Hello. So some quick introductions. So, to check out the panel, we are joined by Danny Kessler. He's Korea's first PhD in wellness tourism, professor at Minson College of Liberal Arts, and director of the wellness research lab at University. His work, traditional practices of modern wellness innovation, is shaping how well-being is understood across academia, industry, and global policy. So a warm welcome to Danny. Following Danny, we'll meet with Kim Hang Ho. Kim is the cofounder of Smart Grid and an, and an AI governance and sustainability researcher. She was also recognized as a 25 under 25 global legacy awardee. Her work is founded in a simple but powerful belief that technology should be safe, responsible, and good for everyone. 

Now following Kim, Sarah Sinclair is a senior change leader with over thirty years of experience across financial services, regulation, and technology, known for helping complex change get over the line when the stakes are high. She is also the founder of Change Gap and Colabs Global, where she leads global collaborations and hackathons across AI, sustainability, and regulation to build shared solutions that work for people, institutions, and the future. Now, after Sarah, you'll hear from Hui Peng. Hui Peng is an author, leader, and advocate for neuro-affirmative workplaces, with lived and professional experience across leadership, caregiving, and inclusion. She's also the author of how to be a neuro affirmative parent, bringing a deeply human lens to how we design careers and organizations. And following Sarah, you'll hear from Euna Kim. Euna is an experienced supervisor working across the theme park and surf park industry with a strong background in international relations, public relations, and intercultural communication. 

She holds a PhD in language interpretation and translation from Pusan National University, bringing a global a unique global and cross-cultural lens to complex fast-moving environments. And, of course, we'll welcome back or, see, Ting as well, our keynote from before. So enough from me. That was a lot said. Danny, I'll start by asking you a question. From your research, What is one habit or practice that high performers often overlook, but that is actually the different the biggest difference maker in sustaining energy and preventing burnout? 

Alright. Thank you for having me on this panel. It's really an honor to be here with all these wonderful people. I would say the number one thing that high performers need to have is a good sleep. And the problem is in modern day workplaces, we don't think about that. Sometimes we have work in the middle of the day, the evening, and we have a coffee late at night, and then that interferes with our sleep. And then the next day, since we didn't have a good sleep, we wake up tired, and we need more coffee. And it's this vicious cycle. So high performers really find a way. Maybe they stop having their coffee at 2 PM. Maybe they have some, various, supplements that I have here that I wanted to show everybody. 

I don't know if you could see through the blur, but magnesium at night, theanine at night, things like that. I mean, you know, everyone's different. That's the that's my stack that I like to take before I go to sleep. And then I sleep better, and then I wake up fresh, and I have more more effective in in the morning. So I would say sleep is by far the number one thing. 

Thank you so much. I am definitely guilty. I'm sure a lot of us here are with the caffeine intake when things get tired, but definitely going to incorporate magnesium in everyone's diet here. I hope the audience goes to pick up some magnesium. 

And it's the magnesium, the one that is good for sleep is the magnesium, glycinate or the magnesium byglycinate. That's the one. There's different magnesium. That one's the one for sleep that's very good for nighttime. 

Really cool. I had no idea there were different types. That's awesome. I guess you, pretty much answered my follow-up, but I was gonna ask you, what's something that the audience can try this week, like, pick up tomorrow aside from the magnesium to really get, their health journey going? 

Yeah. You probably would have to order it on iHerb or Amazon. Yeah. The magnesium the theanine is the other one that I that I showed, and that is, that is an extract from the green tea. 

Okay. 

So green tea like, when you have tea versus when you have coffee. When you have tea, you're a little bit more relaxed. You for most most of us. And the tea has, some special, effect. And this is the theanine, which is the extract from the green tea. So it it it's a nice thing to take, and, obviously, everyone's different, you know, and take it and see how it feels. You might have a deeper sleep. And there's other ones like if there's other supplements out there. So you gotta there's a chamomile extract. So some of you like to have chamomile tea, but you can also have the chamomile extract. I forget the name of that off off the top of my head. But there's a few things like that. And if you play with that, you know, try one, try another, and see what works for you. 

That's awesome. I the audience is definitely agreeing on the sleep. I'm sure everyone's going to pick up all these cool stuff from the store. I also wanted to mention that a lot of us here are tuning in from South Korea or have a deep appreciation for South Korean practices. And I just wanted to do a shout out that you did your first PhD in wellness tourism in South Korea, in particular with the jimjibang. Could you tell us a little bit about that? 

Yeah. Well, I I did my PhD in in wellness tourism, and I wrote an I wrote an a book chapter about the the jimjibang. And, that's another one actually that's very nice to help you have a good night's sleep. I know that if I have a rough week, I'll go to, like, the and I'll I'll, do a hot and cold hot cold treatment. And then after that, I sleep wonderfully. So, that's another trick that, that I that I find that I I use if I need, like, maybe on a Sunday night before the the the hard week starts. Yes. That's nice. Yeah. 

I envy everyone in the APAC region. They have the point of access to a good ginger pong. They gotta up that here in Vancouver, but we'll definitely be taking those advices. Thank you so much, Danny, for That's right. The conversation well. Now, Kim, I have a question for you. So you work across deep tech, AI governance, and community initiatives. How do you decide which opportunities are truly aligned with your values and will lead to long term impact? And which ones, even if exciting, you've learned to say no to? 

So, usually, like, actually, like, in in Vietnam, it's like we have, have, like, two words. It's mean it's also mean about goal, but, yeah, like, to to translate in English, it's we have, like, long term goal and short term goal. So, like, you look at my career is we have, like, have a different, but, actually, it's it's also a way, like, the long term goal. Like, what like, I usually when I do something, I would think, like, when I was 80 years old, when I look back, like, will I regret doing that? And so that's why when everything, like, have the opportunity, I always think, okay. Is it, like, really aligned with my long term goal or not? Like, I will feel that when I was 80. And, yes, so that's why, like, actually, I did tech and also AI governance and as well as, like, community initiative. 

It's always, like, the way I want to contribute to society and make, like, lift up everybody, like, to have a better life. So although, like, it will be in different sector, but always in the same goal, I always pursue. And so that's why I make that the decision. 

I love that. Thank you so much. In that same pursuit that you're always reaching for your goals, I know in this room, we have a lot of ambitious individuals. How do you, say no to some things? Like, are there times when you say for your well-being, I need to, take a boundary just for yourself even though I want to do more? How have you navigated those decisions? 

So, like, actually, like yeah. So it's it's also, like, I think it's a mistake, like, when usually, people in early career, like, we want to do more. But the the point is, like, when I do more, like, when I actually, now I'm 25 years old, and I feel like my health is not as good as before. And, yeah, and, also, that that's like, yeah, you can when you are was young, like, you can stay up all night and you will feel energy in the morning, or you can party all day, and then you will feel like, yeah, you can go to work at eight and you feel, okay. I don't need sleep. But when you more, like, become, older, like, you you feel, okay. I need sleep. And, also, like, you need to know what is your priority. Kind of, like, as I said, it's a long term goal and short term goal. So, like, my for my short term goal, like, I usually make what kind of, like what I look what I look myself in next five years. 

So I will say no that, okay, I do it I make this decision. Can I get closer to my goal in next five year or not? So that is type I prioritize, and you will need to because, like, usually people, like, just say yes because all the opportunity is kind of, like, attracting. And but you need to be kind of, like, consider what make you, go faster and kind of, like, come closer to your goal. And but if you have, like, different age, like, different time, you will have make a different decision. And so, like, for example, like, I'm young now, so I want to make some of the goal capital more risky. Because, like, when I was older, I will have more, like, have, like, responsibility, like, with my family, with my children. But now, like, I'm alone. 

I still don't have anything. And so, like, I can take more, like, risky decision. So that is, like, how I will compare, like, my age. Okay. Can I take a risk? Like yeah. Because I what's what type of what's the worst scenario I will have if I didn't take this? So that is, like, how I consider first, like, can I when I take that decision, can I come closer to my goal? And is it a risky? Was it the worst scenario? I will take that goal. Like, maybe I will lose the job, but I can get five in a job or something like that because I I don't have many, like, responsibility. And so that's, like, the thing that I usually take into consideration when I make a decision. 

Great. Thank you so much. You make a great point about having to evaluate where you are in your own life in order to help others too. I see Jamie's comment how she's tired of people talking about performance and forgetting about the self care and well-being part. Well, Jamie, you're in luck. This conversation is for you. And, Danny, thank you so much for popping that in there. I could not have found that myself online. So thank you so much, and thank you so much, Kim, for your perspective. Sarah, I invite you now to answer. You've spent decades helping complex change get over the line across regulation, AI, and global systems. And often, I'm I I mentioned and noticed through collaboration rather than control. So in high stakes environments where pressure is constant, I can't I could just imagine, What is one leadership practice that has helped you build credibility and trust without overextending yourself personally? 

Thank you very much. Yeah. I mean, so important. And, it's, you you know, something that I'm thinking about and learning every day, you know, because, I I think what I've seen in the last, you know, five years, excuse me, especially is that, a lot of things are getting harder, and we're getting more tired. We seem to have less time for, ourselves, for our family and friends, and, you know, the promise of technology, and now, especially AI, instead of perhaps using the the productivity gains, that that affords us, we just end up doing more. So something's gotta change. And, so I think, you know, a couple of key things from my perspective. One is that kind of, you know, practice of always looking to, you know, involve others, not try and do everything yourself, even though you might want to and think it's just gonna be quicker, easier to do it myself. You know, it's all about, you know, involving the team, bringing other people up, giving them opportunities, and and by doing so, you know, not taking on too much of a burden yourself. 

And I think another part is a kind of variation on that, which is collaboration. And this is something that, you know, we've actually, you know, we're building a business, on because I I I personally and I've I've found other people, saying the same, you know, tired and frustrated of going to conferences where at the end of a panel, people say, the only way we're gonna solve x, whether it's economic crime or sustainability or AI, excuse me, is to collaborate. 

Yes. 

And then 

you go to the next panel, and it's exactly the same. So the question for me was, what does collaboration actually mean and who's, you know, you know, got a model for doing it effectively, and in a way that, you know, other people benefit, you know, that that's fair and transparent. A lot of people think collaboration is just by talking. And talking is important, but it's gotta move beyond talking into action. And, in areas of what, you know, some people call wicked problems, you you definitely need collaboration. And, you know, so even some of the largest multinational organizations are waking up to the fact that they, you know, even though they want to be, number one, they can't do it alone. So collaboration is really key. 

Thank you so much. You make a great point on collaboration also. It's very inspiring to know that a lot of people in this audience probably assume that higher up in your career, you know yourself well and you're able to handle and tackle balance, in a more intentional way. But even so far into your career, you're honest with yourself and say collaboration, delegation, these things are incredibly important for not only your own health, but the health of your entire organization and companies and communities that you're a part of. So thank you so much for that insight, Sarah. 

Can I just add one more thing onto that actually? Because, a really important part, and lesson we've learned is giving, opportunities to youth community. And it's been really illuminating and, fun even to to see how on certain tasks, you know, it wasn't interesting, oh, you know, give that to the most experienced people because you can trust them. You you give them to a younger person, and they've actually outperformed, you know, the older people. You know? And and that's great. But there's always, you know, worry about, young people getting into the industry, And, and so on, that's a really powerful lesson. So I I think if you put that in the mix of the other things I've said, you you know, a lot can change for good. 

Thank you. That actually brings me or makes me think a lot about Siting's keynotes, on our generation and how maybe even the young generation has some things to say and and how we're incorporating our strengths into conversations as well. So thank you so much for that point, Sarah. I'm gonna have a question for Heepang now. So, Heepang, you advocate for neuro affirmative inclusive workspaces while balancing leadership and caregiving. In this industry, what are some challenges you face? And in addition to those challenges, how have you defined ambition in a way that honors both performance and well-being? 

Great question. I can say this all day, but I wanna summarize into two points. So first is success defined differently. Your definition of success and my definition of success is very different, and it's okay. You know, we have the not everyone wants to be a CEO. But one thing for sure is success is not linear. So it go up and down, good days and bad days. So I think when we were doing our career or family or caregiving, sometimes we see regress, we panic. And we thought that there's something wrong. We have to find out what's wrong. And then we keep again, we we intend to do more things and add more things, which is leading to, you know, burnout and so on and so forth. 

So my advice and what works for me is don't panic. Pause in the mayhem and then try again. That's why it works for me. And most importantly, I want to emphasize is celebrate small wins. It's only these little little baby steps that accumulate into the big wins. So in terms regarding his career or your family or even, you know, taking care of your children, All these little, little small things, worth celebrating, especially when you're in this neurodivergent community. Like, I give you an example. If someone is struggling with eating disorder, eating a piece of carrots, eating a slice of cheese, it's a big deal. Only people who struggle with that know how hard it is, and we have to celebrate all these, little steps. So the second thing I want to highlight, it's priority. I think Kim has briefly went through it. The word priority was invented in a singular form. It's only I think the nineteenth century, it becomes plural. 

So actually everyone should only have one priority. But of course, you know, in today's world, everyone is trying to do more. We have to balance. So in my case, in my perspective, of course, we want to balance work and family. So how are you gonna balance it? So in what works for me, it's it's only when your family independence increase, your supervision decrease. So when your supervision decrease, you have more time to add things to your plate. So it's basic math. So in in terms of career, maybe your employee, your subordinate, your coworker, It's only when their independence increase you can step back a little bit and do more things. I think, everyone's capacity is like a cup of coffee. If you feel the cup of coffee burning hot coffee to the brim, if you flinch, that's it. 

You're gonna burn your hand. So always remember to leave room for error. So you cannot be always running at capacity. That's what, sitting says. Sustainability is a kind of leadership skill. You have to sustain you that's why I think you always have to have room for errors. Yeah. That's all. 

Thank you, Huiyupeng. The coffee analogy is such a great way to visualize that analogy about sustainability and not overexerting yourself. And I also loved your takeaway on celebrating the little wins too. You know? We're all such ambitious, high performing individuals that sometimes we forget about the little things when we're have our mindset on such big goals. So that's a great important point that that you make there, Heepang. Thank you so much. Now onto Una Kim. So, Una, you work across global cross control environments where expectations can shift very quickly. So when navigating those different types of systems, how do you communicate your value clearly? And also on a more personal note, I know that you surf. 

So how has been an important outlet for you in maintaining balance and perspective while also working such demanding global roles? 

Thank you, Claire, for the questions. Yes. I'm working, in different context, different industries, but it could be, like, a very opposite to what Heping or Kim has mentioned that you have to focus just one performance or one board positions. But I'm currently taking three positions, which is the main job is the finance, finance position at Busan Finance Center. But I'm also taking the role at the board, board governor of the International School of Busan. And I also freelance writing for the Weibo magazine. But it could be connected to one core value. So, across different context and different industry, I try to keep my core value or core capability to stand out and to gain more from the past experiences. 

So what I'm doing is that, I'm trying to, improve my strategic communication skills. And that's, that's why I'm searching for that because that's, that's the habit I earned from my previous Weibo project. But I I didn't want this expertise and culture insight to go away even I moved to different industries. That's why I kept searching in this wave park industry and doing this friends freelance writing for to share this to the global audiences. 

Amazing. Thank you so much. It seems that communication is a big theme, that connects to well-being from Sarah, VPATing, Kim, to everyone. Communication all about rallying, your boundaries and also what you're okay with and also communicating your strengths. It's a great skill to to hone in and develop, and I'm so glad that you're able to see that throughout the progression of your career. So thank you so much for sharing, Anna. Now we are going to move to Seating back to Seating, our lovely keynote. Welcome back. I did want to ask you this question, and I feel like the audience had similar questions. When you imagine the next generation of women leaders across APAC, what gives you the most hope, and can you tie well-being into this as well? 

Yes. Absolutely. Love the questions. And thank you for having me back on the panel. And to add to answer to your question, I think I kind of, like, briefly man touched a little bit of this, back in my keynote as, keynote session earlier as well. And I definitely believe so because I think how to next generation of women leaders are gonna lead. They are leading they are going to lead from a place of value. And when I say that, I what I meant was they're gonna redefine ambition in a way that actually fits the life stage, that fits the values, and fits the energy. So what do I mean by that is because I think a lot of women, especially in the Asian context, I think we have been leading in in in a in a system that is defined by the a lot of societal expectation. 

And a lot of time, it is not what we value. So I think I definitely see that there's gonna be a shift in the next generation of women leaders simply because the next generation, we talk about how they view about leadership is is completely different. Mhmm. And how they view what they define in terms of value at work is very different as well. So that is definitely, going to be a a shift where I see in terms of, how the next generation of leaders women leaders is gonna lead. And I also believe that how they lead is gonna be a direct reflection of who they are because the next generation values a lot on authenticity. So they rather lead as a leader who values authenticity than someone who just kind of, like, giving a top down demand and control. 

Because as we can see, in this generation, and, Claire, you can you can verify testify if that is true, is that, you know, they value leaders who are able to actually journey with them. They don't have to have everything figured it out. They just need someone who is able to journey to mentor together with them. So I actually believe that the next generation of women leaders would be good mentors for their for whoever it is working under them as well. 

Thank you so much, and I definitely agree on those sentiments. Authenticity is a huge part of our generation that shines through, especially in this whole surge of AI and more artificial intelligence on the rise, authenticity, and mentorship is going to be a huge deal in shaping a lot of careers. This segues me perfectly into our audience q and a now. So if anyone in the audience has any questions for our lovely panel here, I did see a lovely name Mabelle pop up where she asked what happened, what helped you trust yourself when there was no prior example to follow? So does someone on this panel want to speak to Mabel's question? I might guide this question back to you, since we're on the topic of, future leaders. How did you trust yourself when there was not an example or mentor to follow? 

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Mabel, for this question. And I think I I I would love to take this question because I'm again, I'm speaking on my own experience because for the place where I where I started, I nobody trusted me. And if you want to tell a little bit of backstory, when I first started in my sales role, I was rejected 161 times, and nobody believed in what I was doing. And at a point, the only command that I heard from people was, you know, you are too young to be in this. So people started to doubt me. People started to question me to a point where I started to doubt myself. And I have I I don't have any reason to even trust myself in doing what I was doing. So that makes it even harder for people to trust me. 

But what I've learned is that credibility is built, not in proving yourself. It's by doing the same thing with conviction over and over again. So that was how I if I remember, I was going through the same process and getting rejected and people questioned me, And I kind of went through this process for, like, many, many times. Imagine 161 rejections. So I must have gone through more than 161 times to a point that I kind of, like I strongly believe in back in the three belief that I mentioned earlier. It's why do I do this? Who do I get to do this for, and why does it matter? So I think as long as you are able to communicate this value, we all we all get stressed out when we try to prove ourself. 

And that was the mistake that I made as well because I thought that by proving myself, that's when I get, again, credibility. But I think in the process, how you are able to show up consistently, that is how people, you know, trust you. People start to trust you. 

Yes. Thank you so much. A 161 rejections. I I can't believe it, but, I feel like this circles back to your motto on having your identity at the core and having that belief in yourself that's unwavering. I'm so proud of you for for how far you've come today. Thank you so much for sharing, Siti. 

Thank you. And I hope that and I'm sorry, Mabel's question. 

Yes. And she says, thank you for the wonderful response to my question. Amazing. I see a question for professor Kessler from Laura. What are some foods or habits to avoid for peak performance? And, likewise, any tips for getting into a flow state? 

Alright. Thank you, Laura, for the wonderful question. I'll connect the two because I think they're very related. So, you know, we at least I grew up, and I think a lot of us grew up with the with the diet recommendations of having a low fat diet. And now the American, the American, Food Administration, whatever whatever it's called, they they now they're saying, no. No. No. We were wrong. Don't eat so many carbs, and you can eat fat. So I think that if you don't know now, you know about that. And I think that in the morning, at least in everybody is different, eating a diet higher in in healthy fats, olive oil and coconut oil and butter, and then eating carbohydrates at night is, in my opinion, one of the better ways of maintaining a nice flow state during the day and being able to relax in the evening. 

But, again, everybody is different. And depending upon you and how you feel based on the different foods that you eat, you can determine how much of what you eat and how that's gonna help you, based on that advice or similar advice. But keep your mind open about what you eat because what you put into your body is gonna affect how you feel. It's It's gonna affect your mood. It's gonna affect your concentration. But I I will have to say that at night, if you have the carbs, it it helps you to go to sleep. But if you have the carbs during the day, you might be sleepy during the day. 

Great point. I am very guilty of carbs at night, but, hopefully, that's changing. And, Laura, I hope you got that takeaway for yourself. Thank you so much, Danny, for for your insight onto that topic. We have another question from Jamie San. He goes, how to keep the work life balance? Does everyone want to open their mics and maybe share in one sentence how you would keep work life balance starting with? 

Sure. Again, I spoke about being independent. So in my case, it's only my son's capacity increase. He can do things for himself, then I can step back. I don't have to do so much, and I can focus on my work. So I think that's how I do it, how I juggle. And so far, it works for me, touch wood, and, yeah, that's my tip. 

Thank you, Heepang. Back to Danny. How would you keep work life balance in a in a sentence or two? 

That's a tricky one because it sounds like everyone here has a different schedule and different different things they need to accomplish. So I think what I said in the beginning, getting really good sleep and starting the day with some power, and then at the end of the day, having a relaxing time and and and have a nice routine before you go to sleep and getting that good, like, seven, eight hours of of quality sleep really helps. 

And then also being able to go outside, you know, if you're a lot of us are working on the computer indoors. And I think if we just get outside and get a little fresh air, get get into nature, that really helps even if it's just for a few minutes, and then you go back in your you know, relax your eyes, go go make your eyes wide and see the peripheral vision, and then go back on your computer. 

Do that more, and that's gonna help you feel better when you're working. 

For sure. Actually, generation z, has a saying, reconnecting with nature. And so I'm sure a lot of us will take that to heart and touch a tree after lots of screen time. So thank you for that point, Danny. Sure. I'll pass that on to Sarah in a sentence or two. How do you keep your work life balanced? 

Yeah. So, I think it's about, deciding, you know, what's important for you. And not everyone has that opportunity. Depends on, you know, your job. But, you know, focus on your North Star, and what you need to do to get there rather than just think you need to be busy, you know, do more of everything. It's like, you know, what's the most, effective way to to get there, and and that can help, you know, to not be distracted on being busy and not achieving your outcome. And the other thing is community. So feed yourself, you know, get strength that way because that can help you sustain, you know, in in in, you know, in terms of what you need to do. I I find great energy from, great people, and so that helps get the balance. 

That's an amazing point. I do feel that, the cup I feel like we're talking a lot a lot about cups today with coffee, but how you see will have your if your cup is half full or half empty, you want those people that make your cup seem half full. So thank you so much for that point, Sarah. I see you next on my screen. How do you keep the work life balance? 

For myself, the work all this workload are coming from a lot of decisions we have to make in the work or life status. So what I suggest is that, we, decrease the decision making fatigue. And instead of just, strongly thinking about these decisions, you make a quick decision based on your experiences and your standard, and then how then you have to restore your energy intelligently. Like Jenny said, you go you go more outside and get, involved in the nature environment activities. That's how I do the life and work balances. Thank you. 

Thank you so much, Jenna. And, Kim, how do you keep the work life balance in your life? 

So, like, to me, balance is kind of like the state of your mind, and work is also like the part of your life. So, actually, it's mean, like, you need to first you need to define your balance first in your mind. You have to get a good mental health. Because, like, usually, people feel work life is not balanced because, like, they are doing the work they don't like. And so that is not, like, the part of your life, and they feel like they don't have enough of time for your me time or something. But, actually, if you do the work that you really like, so it's also, like, your life too, and you also have your life. And so that is that's why I think is the thing that the balance is cap, like, the state of your mind. 

You always need to have a good mental health, like, oh, to know what you are doing now. And you feel, actually, like, saw your gratitude about that. And, actually, as, like, I really agree with Danny and also as well, like, about your energy, and you need to have a good sleep. Because, like, people feel work life is not balanced because they lack of sleep. They don't have enough energy. But, like, when you have enough energy and you have energy and you have a good mental health, you can make everything balanced even, like, in the stressful situation. 

Yes. Thank you. Balance is truly the key. Thank you so much, Kim. And finally, Seeteng, how do you keep work life balance? 

Okay. So for me, I think for me, it's I just I would say that I would design your weekly nonnegotiable for your well-being or for whatever you know, for your energy. So what it means is that, you know, if you find if you discover there is one thing that makes you excited, that gives you energy by doing it. Could be sports, could be gym, could be hanging out with friends. Once you identify that, make it your weekly nonnegotiable. So every week, keep repeat keep doing the same thing so it gives you the energy. It it makes you excited. That helps you to kind of keep your your mental state, your emotional state at a bare minimum level. So that is my take. Design your weekly non negotiables. 

Thank you so much, Seetin. I truly think it's those little habits that add up, based on everyone's comments, especially sleep is a big big one that adds up too. So thank you so much. Thank you so much to all of our panelists for sharing such honest and practical insights.